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/leftpol/ - Left Politics

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File: 06b5babf461fc00⋯.jpg (161.03 KB, 800x1000, 4:5, One Big Union.jpg)

 No.143658

Should worker cooperative members also join unions of top-down capitalist business employees? Do unions still have a role to play in democratic workplaces, at least as long as capitalist businesses exist alongside them?

 No.143660

>Should worker cooperative members also join unions of top-down capitalist business employees?

Idealistically, no, because that gives companies more of a chance to exploit them. Until capitalism vanishes I don't see a reason to.

Do unions still have a role to play in democratic workplaces, at least as long as capitalist businesses exist alongside them?

>Do unions still have a role to play in democratic workplaces, at least as long as capitalist businesses exist alongside them?

Tough question. They should have a role but until capitalist businesses cease to exist we can't have a truly Democratic workforce.


 No.143662

File: 730883dc848efee⋯.png (291.05 KB, 736x414, 16:9, era of good feelings.png)

>Should worker cooperative members also join unions of top-down capitalist business employees?

Perhaps not directly, but affiliation between umbrella groups of coops, and labor unions in the bourgeois economy, are common. For instance in South America's recovered factory movement.

>Do unions still have a role to play in democratic workplaces

In a wholly democratic economy, something resembling unions with the approximate function of political parties might become necessary to nurture new policy ideas and resolve popular disagreements about them.


 No.143663

Nobody should ever work.


 No.143681

>>143663

Ok Bob Black


 No.143809

>>143658

how come coops are being talked about as the most radical shit WE NEED TO DO right now when even /pol/ is talking about coops being the next step forward for them? This along with the rising eco-fascism I think in 5 years everyone that isn't a "radlib" will be basically nazbol.


 No.143811

>>143809

oh boy….can't wait. dis gun b gud.


 No.143815

>>143809

Cooperatives are a pretty well-known strategy for obtaining economic independence, capital, and organizational power. You can be a liberal or a fascist and promote co-ops to encourage gentrification or channel money to your fringe political project, but IMO the most interesting use for co-ops would be to promote a federation of cooperatives that could organize workers together and perhaps form the base of an independent socialist party, while allowing for internal experiments in economic planning and distribution among members without relying on state power.

>muh eco-fascism and nazbols

If socialists can't provide an answer to environmental degradation besides techno-utopianism and MMT chicanery, there will be no other refuge for people other than right-wing tribalism.


 No.143816

>>143815

Eco nazbol

Also, haha


 No.143821

File: e5e9dadc2d9576c⋯.jpg (167.07 KB, 1024x509, 1024:509, 0*W4_nuKJfMoLSdWIz.jpg)

>>143815

>IMO the most interesting use for co-ops would be to promote a federation of cooperatives that could organize workers together and perhaps form the base of an independent socialist party, while allowing for internal experiments in economic planning and distribution among members without relying on state power.

Build the new system under the wheezing hulk of the old, rendering its responsibilities and powers irrelevant one by one. When it dies, and we arise full of vitality from its mummified ruins, its passing may not even be noticed.

>techno-utopianism and MMT chicanery

That is precisely the best political angle to tackle environmental issues, because most other approaches have a dangerous tendency to drift into moralistic lifestylism. Such approaches ignore massive civilization-level changes in the structure of industry, trade, infrastructure, etc., that would make human civilization completely sustainable with little or no impact on the daily life of the typical prole; in favor of pseudoscientific LARP-y SJW faggotry about being vegetarian, not taking vacations in faraway places, living in cramped bugman blocks, etc., all of which are extremely unpopular among proles and give porky the blind eye needed to continue procrastinating.


 No.143848

>>143821

> ignore massive civilization-level changes in the structure of industry, trade, infrastructure, etc., that would make human civilization completely sustainable with little or no impact on the daily life of the typical prole

What do you means about this? Soy?


 No.143851

>>143809

I hear Hitler ate a burrito one time. Better not do that…


 No.143852

File: 9e73e293240a088⋯.jpg (334 KB, 1280x960, 4:3, walled-world2.jpg)

>>143821

The MMT socdems of today are the eco-fascists of tomorrow. Eventually politicos will realize that it is not possible to promise rising consumption, economic growth and mass industrial employment, while meaningfully reducing carbon and other pollution AND providing asylum and aid to those fucked over by climate-driven disaster or famine. EU social democracies are already pretty good at letting refugees die along their borders, and if industry/commodity flows refuse to be scaled back, the only solution is to strengthen the borders and create walled islands of prosperity amidst the planet of burning slums.


 No.143862

>>143821

how? you seem to forget not all deep ecologists align the same way. Camatte on the left and Linkola on the far right.


 No.143866

File: 5eb008a3aa4ebca⋯.png (52.93 KB, 720x540, 4:3, Slide1.png)

File: aad59f1839311b9⋯.gif (48.06 KB, 700x560, 5:4, USEnFlow02-quads.gif)

File: 5a5b907fdab0645⋯.jpg (57.49 KB, 357x284, 357:284, bbr_why_ee_upgrades graph_….jpg)

>>143848

>>143862

>switch to sustainable energy sources such as wind, solar, tidal, and geothermal

>advanced, aggressive water reclamation, recycling

>efficiency measures such as combined cycle district heating/cooling, geothermal heat pump HVAC, centralized lighting, rail, electric transport, turbosails, etc.

>protectionism, fair trade mandates, and lifecycle externality pricing to enforce cradle2cradle product design and more local production instead of disposability and cheap foreign labor

>penalties and subsidies to strongly incentivize telecommuting and milktruck-style route delivery instead of pointless work and shopping commutes

>kill perverse subsidies such as cash crops

>geoengineering

>>143852

>muh mmt

Reminder that the point of MMT isn't some giant change to the way capitalism works, but honesty about the way every central banker secretly knows it already works as of a century ago when fiat currency was adopted. In its very strongest form, MMT is just the exhortion to view the economy as the sum total of human and material resources we have at hand, rather than meaningless magic numbers, so that we can bend the whole of those resources to the goals we wish to accomplish.


 No.143869

>>143866

sounds reasonable, maybe you're just less nihilistic than I am


 No.143985

The problem here is that people conceive unions only in the class struggle sense. This is fine when it comes to fighting capitalism, but unions also need to prepare themselves to be the organ from the new society shall be organized on.

Unions are merely the modern version of the medieval guild. They are an integral part of our Western civilization, and the building block of an urban republican society. This is why unions ironically should also provide training for workers and generally provide skilled workers to business. This isn't to please management, but rather to establish a powerbase for unions.

So, unions are modern guilds. This is where cooperatives can play a role in unions. Unions with cooperatives in them are essentially guilds: an industry/craft-wide organization of businesses. Cooperatives should be admitted as collective entities within the unions. I also think that unions should be confederations of crafts/vocations within any given industry, perhaps with a bicameral system to represent cooperatives/workers of a given business in one house and vocations in another.

Unions should also focus more on taking over more shares of corporations, fighting against progressive/affirmative action policies, and for more role in management. The goal should be less about better payment and more about power. Unions should be just as militant in seizing power as their corporate counterparts if they want to compete.

Inb4 the accelerationists say that concessions merely placate workers, the reality is that revolutions that are successful in the long term happen among people who already have significant power and liberty. The Roman plebeian simply had to secede to remove Patrician privileges. The American yeoman farmer similarly had the tools needed to achieve liberty that went far beyond that of European peasants. The Swiss and Frisians were similarly free due to having a strong yeoman farming class. The modern version of this class is the unionized and cooperative worker in my opinion.




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