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/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

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The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?

File: 0f6028efdbc86ad⋯.jpg (130.83 KB, 635x794, 635:794, moses01.jpg)

0f7904  No.520608[Reply]

Glory to God in the highest!

You can continue discussion with others,as well as reach the mod team on our Discord server! -> https://discord.gg/UygSwtC

As a rule, we do not partner with any other website or server. If someone is claiming to be partnered with this board or our discord server, disregard any such claim.

You can reach the board owner at this email: tutorNC@protonmail.com

This board is for fellowship and discussion among Christians. Please be mindful that some general rules are enforced to encourage constructive discourse.

Please read the rules and ban policy before posting!


1. This board is strictly Safe For Work.

Please consult the global rule page if this is not clear.

2. Interactions must be for the sake of Charity. Post made in the spirit of disruption or spite could earn you a short to permanent ban.

Charity is a foundational concept in Christianity. It is the virtue of supreme love for God and others. It is the greatest of the three virtues Paul emphasizes, and governs all Christian conduct. Just because this is an 8chan board does not alleviate Christians of their moral duty. All interactions must be done with this in mind.

This includes all antagonism. Personal insults, trolling, disrupting/derailing a thread, raiding from other boards, spamming, and scandal are all considered part of this rule.

Scandal includes encouraging people to commit sin like fornication, masturbation, blasphemy, apostasy, abortion, lying, taking the Lords name in vain, suicide, and the like. Any esoteric topics will fall under this as well.

Interdenominational debates are allowed on this board, but they are still governed by charity. InsinuatiPost too long. Click here to view the full text.

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efd1cd  No.821906



Yep, big yikes all around.

File: d080038c6654a33⋯.jpg (185.99 KB, 900x600, 3:2, argentine church.jpg)

99a16f  No.491187[Reply]

Didn't see a qtddtot in the catalog, so I'm creating one.

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a3c0ea  No.821942




Thank you for the responses. Yes, I know how to make alcohol safely, I have been doing it for year with alot of research and experience. I have no intentions of selling or leading myself or others into sin of drunkenness.

File: 6551fde33670992⋯.jpg (97.84 KB, 736x736, 1:1, 7706d710a28e1903e239b3a2e6….jpg)

c038c2  No.405648[Reply]

27 You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Matthew 5:27-28

19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 1 Corinthians 6:19

8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Galatians 6:8

Post your Purity successes/woes/prayer requests/ etc.

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eee449  No.822006

Pray for me brothers, I have sinned yet again.

I was doing much better since the beginning of the year, made about 40 days during lent. But since a couple of months back its been getting harder, specially since I've started working as a Uber driver, been getting into a rut and losing good habits, like frequently going to church, reading, eating clean, smoking. Its making it all too hard to find balance.

So pray for me brothers, I still pray daily for guidance, trying to find the time to rest and go to mass, but instead ended getting back to this degenerate hell that is pornography.

File: 121666695b2d721⋯.png (133.04 KB, 258x258, 1:1, 1b00ba2cf2493b5621a21179a0….png)

bc249d  No.508486[Reply]

>What is this thread?

The designated political discussion thread. Christians from all parts of the political spectrum are encouraged to discuss relevant political topics and ideas, as well as ask questions and hopefully recieve answers from all points of view. Anything related to politics that doesn't actively involve the Catholic/Orthodox/Protestant churches should go here, so if a politics thread is deleted, this thread is the reason why.

As a reminder:

All board rules apply to this thread, so keep things civil.

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ad49fa  No.821954


The state has a moral duty to enforce what is good onto society as a whole even if it means suppressing free speech. Do you really think suppressing someone that advocates pedophilia or homosexuality in public is the same as suppressing someone who is preaching or singing hymns in public?

File: 0f5c438ddb221b0⋯.jpg (124.66 KB, 1024x1536, 2:3, the-infant-samuel-at-praye….jpg)

dfad1c  No.353817[Reply]

“But I have prayed for you, that your faith would not fail. And you, when you have turned back, strengthen your brethren.”

Luke 22:32

Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition with thanksgiving, let your requests be known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your thoughts in Christ Jesus.

Philippians 4:6-7

Confess your offences to one another and pray for one another in order to be healed. The insistent prayer of a righteous person is powerfully effective!

James 5:16

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ccca1c  No.821789

File: f946aad8c747f18⋯.jpg (6.06 MB, 3398x2284, 1699:1142, christmascoach.jpg)

391693  No.822014[Reply]

I've been thinking a lot about hermeneutics recently and I came to the conclusion that the problem I'm about to present poses some difficulty. The gist of the argument is this:

(1) Every instance of interpretation (i.e. textual linguistic understanding) is untrue if it fails to grasp the author's intention.

(2) Every instance of a dogmatic proclamation with biblical verses invoked in its defence is an instance of interpretation.

(3) Every instance of a dogmatic proclamation with biblical verses invoked in its defence is untrue if it fails to grasp the author's (of the verses in quesion) intention.

How do we know we possess the original intention of the author?

>inb4 the Church informs us of the true meaning

This answer has two problems. For one, it introduces a circular chain of reasoning and it also doesn't solve the problem because the Church has not made dogmatic proclamations on the meaning of every single chapter in the Holy Scriptures. Only a select few verses have been infallibly interpreted. As for the circularity problem, think about it. Where does the Church's (or even the Pope's) authority come from? The Apostles spoken of in the Bible and Christ's sayings.

704593  No.822015


This is the problem of sola scriptura.

391693  No.822017


Read the second part of my post. Appealing to the Church doesn't solve the problem.I imagine if Luther was here he would say the Scripture is plainly clear in meaning and thus it is not difficult to grasp the author's original intention.

391693  No.822018


Here's a video which explains it better than I can.

fd0e22  No.822021


I don't fully, 100% agree with the first statement. Authors will, in a non-intentional manner, put messages in a text they're not fully aware of. If by "the author's intention" you mean only the intentions he's fully aware of, I have to partially disagree with your first statement. Any good piece of literature (and of art) has implicit meanings, apart from the explicit ones the author inserts in an intentional way. A writing that only possesses explicit meaning is not literature, but probably propaganda, an instruction manual, or some other thing.

Now, in the case of the Bible, there are, in a way, two authors to consider: the actual human author and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. A religious interpretation of the Bible requires understanding the later to interpret the words of the first. That requires reading the Bible as if it was one book, instead of a collection of books (which is how it should be interpreted if you're not looking for a religious interpretation but for a literary one, an historical one, or some other kind.). Reading it as just one story requires accepting the premise that all the books in the Bible have a good reason for being together, that reason being the early Church's tacit agreement on those books having a great inspiration of the Spirit, and thus being a reflection of Christianity's core beliefs.

To understand a book we must understand its context. The gospels and the acts of the apostles were written to teach other people what had happened during the life of Jesus and the early days of the Church. The different letter were written initially for communication, but were copied, distributed and passed down cause early Christians thought they were valuable. The Bible the collection of writings early deemed the most valuable and therefore it should be interpreted within the rest of the tradition of that early Church.

Taking the Bible and rejecting the writings of the early Church fathers is disingenuous. It's the same as if I took Augustine's writings to make my own religion but refused to take the Bible into account too. Were early Christians right when selecting books but not when clarifying doctrine? Not when organizing themselves? Not when having councils to separate the wheatPost too long. Click here to view the full text.

File: 8f3351d51f6f47e⋯.jpg (31.1 KB, 472x298, 236:149, thonking.jpg)

a40329  No.811519[Reply]

Any good arguments against atheism?

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fb9ed2  No.821326

File: fe56e1b20c22839⋯.jpeg (640.34 KB, 700x6826, 350:3413, fe56e1b20c2283993a370f9e6….jpeg)

This image is excellent for the "muh reason, muh logic, muh proofs" crowd because it uses their own language and leaves them little choice to counter besides emotional outbursts like "well I DON'T BELIEVE THAT".

19e39e  No.821629


>If there is something, then we know there was never nothing.

>This somehow proves that my specific god that hates foreskins exists.

No. No it doesn't.

4120a5  No.821733

File: 008577155a16398⋯.jpg (1.38 MB, 703x2743, 703:2743, 1546580164540.jpg)

File: d106fb2c69fafdd⋯.jpg (1.21 MB, 699x2418, 233:806, 1546580414845.jpg)

The Aristotelian and Neo-Platonic proofs of God, as presented among others in Edward Feser's Five Proofs of the Existence of God

e46f97  No.821739

The biggest argument against atheism is atheists themselves. Within an atheistic framework, neither people nor really anything has any implicit value. Yet most atheists, especially those with whom you're likely to have conversations with, are very big moralizers. Their actions contradict their words, because something very deep inside them tells them to value justice, as if we were more than just mere machines. The biggest problem with reaching atheists though is that they have a muddled mind, and cannot, usually, be introspective enough to see this. It's like trying to speak to someone who speaks a different language: while you both share language as a concept, your words are not the same. It's only when you have a mutual framework that you can reach them and speak coherently.

fc401f  No.822020


the thread is called 'debunking atheism' not 'proving that my specific god that hates foreskins exists'

File: 652753ed1461727⋯.png (260.45 KB, 800x800, 1:1, ManlyPerry.png)

7a4f7f  No.822019[Reply]

Amazing sermon from Pastor Manly Perry last night

Red hot…

Skip to 3hr 27mins


God bless

File: 6725478b9847443⋯.jpeg (13.17 KB, 268x188, 67:47, download (9).jpeg)

ee5250  No.821819[Reply]

If I were to burn the Talmud or any other blasphemous book would it still be sinful because it contains God's name?

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ff4909  No.821996


If it cost hundreds or thousands of dollars I wouldn't buy it then, and that is a very valid point



There are some proper citations I've seen online, I have reason to believe as such. Also, I am an anti-semite, doesn't mean I'm wrong. And I don't simply blindly believe anything about Jews. Whatever I believe I believe for good reason.

a2b82e  No.822000


>How do you know those verses are actually in there

Because we've read them for ourselves, and because nearly all Talmudists acknowledge said verses (yet claim they have nothing to do with Mary or Jesus, but nevertheless acknowledge them). Naturally, you're outraged by this, as we goyim aren't meant to read or even know about your perverted commentaries.

>and not made up by anti-semites

Discussing Judaism is anti-semitic now?

>Do you blindly believe whatever anyone says about Talmudists if it fits your personal narrative?

So Evangelicals blindly supporting Israel and Talmudist interests is fine, since it benefits you, but a handful of Christians discussing what they've read in the Talmud on an obscure Catholic rosary-making board is a big no-no? Please stop trying to subvert our board with lies and slander.

4ecd66  No.822004


>tender fee-fees hurt this much by a simple question

The funny thing about snowflakes is they never realize they're a snowflake.

a2b82e  No.822013


>projecting this hard

Imagine adhering to a religion that directly opposes the order of the universe. It sounds like you live a very bitter existence. I'd encourage you to repent.

4ecd66  No.822016


>he doesn't agree with me

>quick! call him a jew!

It must be difficult going through life having been educated by /pol/.

File: 7c1d6f81c1995cf⋯.jpg (32.43 KB, 768x427, 768:427, epstein-1-768x427.jpg)

aff66a  No.821838[Reply]

I really, really dislike this guy and what he's done. I can't pray for him right now. What do

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e18447  No.821957

File: 066b1ca66064827⋯.jpg (38.3 KB, 640x848, 40:53, pOlABAa_d.jpg)


I know, he is a terrible person, but he needs your prayers. Pray that God protects him, at least enough so Epstein can spill the beans on his evil child sex trafficking ring. Remember, it takes far more courage to forgive someone than it is to take revenge on them. Think of it as an act of charity on a most undeserving scumbag.

fd450a  No.821958


>Why does it say rapists have to marry their rape victims

Simple: you break it you buy it.


affirmative consent btfo

041ae6  No.821960


You forgot to read the last line.

c574ae  No.822007


Ronald Blumpf

1ace47  No.822010


Jewstein Goldberg

File: 2a16a22bc6e3833⋯.jpg (315.15 KB, 960x640, 3:2, flag-1208882_960_720.jpg)

7e4d25  No.658214[Reply]


The purpose of this thread is to provide a place for general Catholic discussion. Mass, readings, rosary - everything that is connected with the faith.

Other denominations welcome, although we politely ask you to keep the arguments about our theological differences in other threads.

Useful links:

Official Vatican website: www.vatican.va

Today's readings: www.ewtn.com/daily-readings/

Papal encyclicals: www.papalencyclicals.net

Catholic encyclopedia online: www.newadvent.org/cathen/

Summa Theologiae of St. Thomas Aquinas online: www.newadvent.org/summa/

How to pray the rosary: www.rosarycenter.org/homepage-2/rosary/how-to-pray-the-rosary/

Divine Office (liturgy of the hours): www.divineoffice.org/welcome/

Little Office of the Immaculate Conception: www.catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?p=1925

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d7260a  No.821963

File: 5535f2bb5cf255a⋯.jpg (61.77 KB, 620x387, 620:387, sad paco.jpg)



I get the impression he's not so much a Pope for us Catholics but a Pope for the gentiles, so the image of the Church may be restored and people start coming back to it. Outsiders are starting to have a positive view of the Church or, at least, a less negative one. I hate the media's "pop Pope" image of Francis, but I agree with you too that trads are excessively hard on the Pope, having often a "holier than thou" approach.

That being said, I worry too that this "new image" may wash away part of the Church's dignity too

939cdf  No.821965


>It is sedevacantist and, therefore, protestant heresy.

You condemn what you know nothing about.

1e660c  No.821971


>so the image of the Church may be restored and people start coming back to it. Outsiders are starting to have a positive view of the Church

Making the church pander to the sensibilities of people who hate Christ will not bring people to Christ, it will just degrade the bride of Christ, as it has for the last 60 years.

3aa424  No.821973


>All during this time Dominic continued to preach, engage in debates with the heretics and give lectures. His cheerfulness and joyousness of spirit never deserted him even in the face of threats against his life. He was fearless. Once, he walked alone through a village that he knew was bitterly against him singing at the top of his voice so that if they wanted to harm him they had their chance. Another time a group of heretics asked him, “Have you no fear of death? What would you do if we siezed you now?” Dominic laughed and said, “Oh I would just ask you not put me to death all at once; but gradually limb by limb to make my martyrdom a slow one, so that hardly human in form, blinded and a mass of blood, I should have a really much finer place in heaven.” What can you do with a man who wants to be a martyr? Bodily harm or even a cruel death would play right into his hands. The result was that they left him alone.

based st dominic

d35f22  No.821999


Mods should do something about outright lies like these. Shameful what smut you are peddling here. I will pray for you, anon.

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a34d60  No.821845[Reply]

I'm interested in knowing what the Blasphemies against the Holy Spirit are in Orthodoxy (NOT Catholicism and NOT Protestantism). Would anyone help me? The google search led to vague answers. I need something concrete.

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e6430f  No.821904

I'd suggest asking this in the Orthodox general if you want something other than Catholic meme answers

a34d60  No.821939


I'm sad to be a part of that church, than. ):

According to the Catholics I've committed several

Eternal sins, so I'm questioning what benefit there is to being a Christian now. Could you help me?

a34d60  No.821941


I found it after I posted this. Thank you for the kind suggestion. I would heed it if I had not already.

32b422  No.821947


a34d60  No.821995




I actually was baptized as an Ordodox, grew up Gadolic and now reside without a church.

File: 4a92826f04f9603⋯.png (240.36 KB, 496x340, 124:85, Screen Shot 2019-07-20 at ….png)

bc03eb  No.821929[Reply]

I have a friend who is from India. What is the best way to tell them about Jesus so they won't wind up excluded in the afterlife?


ec716f  No.821937

Historically, it's been done mainly two ways:

-First, make them see they're already Christian. Show them that they already praise God. If they are religious, "spiritual" or whatever, they are more than likely to be already following God in some misguided way. Find out what virtues they exalt in their religion, and see how those same virtues appear in Christianity, either in Jesus or in some saints. That way they can distill the values they find important and live them in a Christian way.

-Secondly, make them see they're adoring idols and that's an obstacle between them and divinity. Again, try to understand how they live their religion, and figure out where their beliefs hold them away from God. Remember that you're not bringing them to your religion, but bringing them to religion. There's only one God. You're helping them improve their relationship with Him, not making them forget their old gods and substitute them for a new one.

For this you'll need a deep, firm understanding of Christianity, both spiritually and intellectually. You'll need quite a decent grasp of philosophy and know about your friend's beliefs and religion. Remember that you're not there to win an argument, nor to score conversion points. You're there to explore, together with your friend, how to get closer to God.

And pray God, pray a lot so he may deliver you from arrogance. Evangelizes often come out as arrogant, people who, in pristine white clothing, come down to the mud where the plebs dwell so they might enlight the rest of humanity with their grace and perfection. It's a big fat trap, and it's really easy to fall into it to some extent.

Lastly, and most importantly, preach by example.

e5f23f  No.821964

This is what happens when hundreds of years pass and Christendom collectively forgets its minority origins in a multicultural milieu.

650f0c  No.821972


> First, make them see they're already Christian.


> Show them that they already praise God.


> If they are religious, "spiritual" or whatever, they are more than likely to be already following God in some misguided way.


> Find out what virtues they exalt in their religion, and see how those same virtues appear in Christianity, either in Jesus or in some saints.


> That way they can distill the values they find important and live them in a Christian way.


someone put a flag on this guy so i can know exactly which kinda heretic he is

File: 4c376a5f5256b55⋯.png (590.57 KB, 662x668, 331:334, Screen Shot 2019-07-16 at ….png)

92a111  No.821743[Reply]

They have worked things out so gays are in schools now. They cannot ban homosexual teachers or students from any school. I have two boys and I don't want them being taught by men who defy the Lord's direct orders and are destined for Hell.

what can I even do anymore to stop this?

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49fb97  No.821935

cf6699  No.821966


Those numbers are a bit old; your numbers stop at 2004, mine begin that year. Although it’s from cbs, they went off of church records:


49fb97  No.821967


The majority of the sex abuse victims of wicked priests are boys. So you're really just making my point for me, homosexuals should not be allowed around children, should not be allowed into the priesthood. (They already aren't allowed into the priesthood, but the enforcement of that rule has more or less been abandoned)

49fb97  No.821969


I should clarify: The overwhelming majority of the sex abuse victims are boys and teenage males. Between 70-85%.

ee0cb3  No.821970


I was advising op not to based on them judging them on where they will go. Though, I've may have been too hasty in my judgement. Apologies. In their current status then no. If they repent and change their ways, i'd be more open to it. So op should find someone else as things stand. If the man/the school changes then op should consider looking back.

But I agree with you.

File: 25d9d30292d12ca⋯.jpg (101.9 KB, 704x1000, 88:125, Theotokos.jpg)

c6e364  No.821112[Reply]

Why do prots hate theotokos?

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b4a185  No.821908


Here, the Protestant argues that when Irenaeus describes Mary as the cause of salvation, it is merely "indirect" language and nothing approaching the view of Mary's importance in the Divine Economia. What is missed out here is the simple fact that Mary is portrayed as a co-recapitulator with Christ in the Divine economy of Salvation. To understand the significance, we need to understand the intertextual use of Genesis 1-3 here(it is actually a common theme throughout Adversus Heresies but its use here will be the focus). But first one thing to note is the fact that reducing Irenaeus' statement here to just "indirect" cause contradicts Irenaeus own exegetical principle of Typology.

In Adversus Heresies III, Chapter 22(the most detailed exposition on the Mary-Eve parallel), Irenaeus introduces the Eve-Mary typology and the Adam-Christ typology here. We see the significance of the flesh that is obtained from Mary to the economy of Salvation. It is important to note that Mary's role is subordinate to that of Christ in this entire economy. The overarching sense is clearly of God's work in recapitulation. Part of this work however, requires the Old and New Testaments to be joined together and Typology is one of the functions of this. The first role of Mary is more passive, stressing the importance of the flesh that is from her as a guarantee of Christ's humanity(remember, Irenaeus states here that if Christ didnt take anything from Mary, he wouldnt have hungered, ate, fasted. He needs to get the flesh of men the way we all do to be truly human). This logic also utilises an intertextual relationship with Genesis through the trigger words "earth", "formation", "hand and workmanship"…etc. This taking up of flesh is also tied to Adam-Christ typology where Christ must take on human nature in order to sum "up in Himself all nations dispersed from Adam downwards, and all languages and generations of men, together with Adam himself".

Part of this divine design then, flowing from the typological logic and recapitulation, requires Mary to be the one who undoes the damage of Eve too. Flowing from this, her role now becomes more active. Her obedience in contrast to Eve's disobedience cause SalvPost too long. Click here to view the full text.

b4a185  No.821910


I realized that I made a mistake in calling Mary a re-capitulator. It should be "co-recapitulator.

Anyhow, Irenaeus' structure clearly doesnt have to mean that Irenaeus prays to Mary or actively venerates her. But even with what he presents, his portrayal of Mary is in fact beyond the confines of Protestantism because of the fact that Mary's own active role contributed to the salvation of humanity which is something no Protestant would affirm except for "indirect". Mary may be sinless to the early Reformers, even the most holy but her role as Eve's advocate or cause of Salvation is not present at all. Calvin himself would not approve of such a language as he doesnt even agree with Augustine's "synergistic" language to begin with. That Mary's obedience and faith have the significance of co-recapitulator or as an important point of salvation history such that her role is more active, this is perhaps closest to some Anglican divines of high church persuasion. But beyond this, it is rare if not non existent for a Protestant to affirm an Irenaean view of Mary.

Such a view should extend to devotional life which one starts to see in the 3rd century with the oldest prayer to Mary and Hippolytus' rhetorical language

b4a185  No.821927


Now I will cover 3rd century evidence for Marian veneration starting with Hippolytus. In Fragment VIII of his writings, when referring to the incarnation of Christ, he uses the common epithet for Mary that is extremely similar to those found in later liturgies and some later fathers, "All-holy Mary, ever-virgin". The flesh of Christ is also described as "All Holy" right after calling Mary this. In a sense, Hippolytus' own statements here anticipate the views of later Christology


In a fragment cited by Theodoret, Hippolytus utilises rhetorical language where Samuel and Mary are directly invoked and questioned as if they are present. While the Christology here is Nestorian, it is to be remembered who is citing this, a supporter of Nestorius who could very well made some adjustments. Such invocation is also not foreign to Hippolytus as he does this in his Commentary on Daniel, beseeching the three youths in the furnace,

>1. Tell me, you three boys, remember me, I entreat you, that I also may obtain the same lot of martyrdom with you, who was the fourth person with you who was walking in the midst of the furnace and who was hymning to God with you as from one mouth? Describe to us his form and beauty so that we also, seeing him in the flesh3 , may recognize him.(see pg 73)


He also does this with Nebuchadnezzar,

>2. Tell me, Nebuchadnezzar, for when did you see the Son of God, so that you confessed this one to be the Son of God? Who pricked your heart so that you plainly spoke such a word? With what sort of eyes were you able to see the light of Post too long. Click here to view the full text.

b4a185  No.821951


Now we get to the real issue of Mary in Scripture.


Here the main point boils down to "Grace" in Gabriel's greeting to Mary is essentially a statement that Mary was favoured by God. There is nothing wrong with this. Practically all commentators render it as "favoured one" and it weakens the use of the verse to support the Immaculate Conception which I dont agree with in the first place. Yet however even when Mary is said to be divinely favored by God, that does not entail a low view of Mary in the grand soteriological narrative. The text also indicate a higher view of Mary than what a plain reading will allow for. This is especially so if we use the technique of letting Scripture interpret itself and thus allow Luke's intertextuality to Old Testament verses to guide us to the significance and meaning of the verses.

Although not mentioned by this anon, "Hail, full of grace"/"Hail, favoured one" can actually simply be just an ordinary greeting and some commentators emphasise this. This is also a common Protestant argument to downplay Mary's importance and role. However χαίρω can also be used to denote a call to rejoice. The BDAG lexicon notes this meaning but classifies the use in Luke 1:28 as being more towards a normal greeting. However it is important to note that the BDAG doesnt just say that this essentially merely means "hello" as the greeting is meant to signal being in good terms and to wish someone well. This sense is is emphasized later by calling Mary "favored one". Given similarities with Zeph 3:4-15 ; Zech 9:9 and Joel 2:21 there is a sense in which Gabriel's announcements to Mary casts her as in a way, representative of Israel as in these instances which closely resemble the greetings to Mary which adds significance to what is essentially a simple ordinary greeting. Also note the similarity of the annunciation to what happened with the high priest Zacharias regarding the birth of John.

Gabriel's label of Mary as "favoured one" shows that Mary is the recipient of divine benefPost too long. Click here to view the full text.

b4a185  No.821968


Before getting to how Luke portrays Mary as a type of the Ark of the Covenant, I want to make one additional note about the most high overshadowing Mary. It is similar to Acts 1:8 and Pentecost where the Holy Spirit will descend upon the disciples. This presents Mary's position as prefiguring or anticipating the future activities of the Messiah and God as he establishes the New Covenant. Mary could be said to be just as Gabriel announcing the favour and birth to her, announcing and heralding the new age and salvation of Israel as Luke will record of the Messiah later in the Gospel and the formation of the Church in Acts. More of this role would come to light as we move to the Magnificat. For now though, we move to the meeting with Elizabeth after the annunciation(verse 43) where the intertextual link with 2 Samuel 6:9 when Elizabeth asks Mary her question.

When Mary visited her relative, Elizabeth, the first questioned she asked is "43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?".

It could be said that the intertext is in fact not to David's question before the Ark but instead to 2 Samuel 24:1-4 which if so, diminishes the argument for Mary as a Type of the Ark of Covenant. That the Messiah be from David's lineage is after all stated by Luke earlier and Gabriel did say that the child that Mary will give birth to would become the king of Israel forever and David was a king of Israel. However in light of the overshadowing of the power and Spirit of God over Mary which tends to describe God's overshadowing and presence in the Tabernacle and glory, it would be more fitting that Luke actually intends to see Mary as someone who is essentially hosting the divine presence similarly to the Tabernacle in the OT or Mount Zion. This makes the intertextual link to 2 Samuel 6:9 more likely especially when Lord here has more Divine conocations and also anticipates Acts 2:34-36(again showing how Mary is heralding the New Covenant as this first identification of Jesus as Lord in Luke's narrative begins first here).

Also significant in verse 42 the Greek verb ἀνεφώνησεν(where Elizabeth spake out in a loud Post too long. Click here to view the full text.

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